(Skorn) I'm only here to boo and cheer as I see fit.
(ZedZorander) oh too late
(Saude) you're being sought out in mud
(Obitum) Ok, let's begin
(Banquo) if you are going to try to abuse triggers, it helps to have the right string
(Obitum) Everyone please settle down so we can run through all this ASAP
(Alcarcalimo) it does
(Obitum) We'll have time for questions and comments as we move along
(Shem) log started
(Pyros) There are 35 participants in the conference.
(Anessa) when Obitum calls for discussion, please use $raise to be added to the queue
(Riviat) Please keep quiet until Obitum asks for questions/comments
(Obitum) Now, if you've been around for a while, you may remember the Lord Council, which served the mud for a long time acting as a conduit for thoughts and ideas between players and the Immortal staff
(Obitum) The Lord Council was an elected group of Lords which met every so often to discuss various things related to the MUD (primarily the Lord game) and would then take the results of those discussions to the Imms
(Obitum) Toward the end of the Lord Council, players seemed to lose interest in having it there for whatever reason.
(Obitum) Candidates thinned out, vote counts were reduced, and the result was that it simply faded away.
(Obitum) Since around that time, discussion has happened among the Imm staff about whether it would make more sense to open up a council for ALL players, which would represent everyone in speaking with us about new ideas, problems, etc
(Obitum) Kariya began the job of creating such a council and worked through much of the charter for it with a group of people who had previously done work for the MUD within various contexts
(Riviat) type $HELP for list of commands
(Riviat) Please do not spam. Thanks
(Alcarcalimo) You should have just copied a text file. *snore*
(Riviat) Anessa is keeping a queue - questions will be tabled in queue order
(Obitum) They got most of the new council's charter completed, but the discussion fizzled on its mailer. Kariya later asked me to complete what he had started, I gathered new people to add to the discussion and began work on finishing his work.
(Obitum) That discussion again fizzled, and nothing was done for quite a while. A few weeks ago, it was suggested at an Imm meeting that we get all of you together at once within conferences to get this completed if that's what all of you want.
(Obitum) Now, another point was raised that things have changed dramatically since the Lord Council was created.
(Obitum) There are a number of mailers which exist today for players to interact with the Immortals, and the staff itself is a lot more open to dealing directly with people.
(Obitum) And some are also wondering if it makes sense to have you guys go through the grunt work of creating and maintaining a player council if what you already have in terms of channels to the Imms is enough to make sure your voice is heard.
(Obitum) And with that, I'll work through the queue and then start getting some comments on the question of whether this is something you all want to do
(Obitum) First person in the queue please, Anessa?
(Anessa) queue is Scrape, Laazarus, Imrik
(Obitum) Scrape, go ahead?
(Scrape) I just want to say one thing. a counsile will always be swayed one way or the other and interest will always be lost. Also i think lord should be made more playable towards single chars so when they're are no runs lord chars arent useless.
(Obitum) Ok, how do you mean, playable toward single chars?
(Alcarcalimo) tell pyros I should run my spam trigger.
(Scrape) a solo plane or a shift that isnt super swarmy from casters.. maybe a plane for hitter and one for casters.. i have no idea really.. just something to make them playable when there's no groups
(Scrape) from - for
(Obitum) Ok thank you, Laazarus?
(Anessa) queue is Laazarus, Imrik, Dahlia, CLOADZhopper
(Obitum) Please do have questions or comments typed out and ready to roll if you're in the queue
(Pyros) do $raise
(Anessa) queue is Imrik, Dahlia, CLOADZhopper, Laazarus, Alcarcalimo
(Obitum) Also, while he's typing, my apologies for not having everything immediately in order, but I hadn't realized I scheduled this thing on Daylight Saving time, and completely missed the clock changing thing.
(Imrik) Why not use the webpage to propose new suggestions, and players log in to vote on them? This would avoid the inevitable dissolution of councils, etc, and give everyone a voice in the direction Avatar takes. Obviously, everything falls to Snikt to veto or approve, but having a simple polling system would make things much easier.
(Anessa) moved Laazarus in queue
(Obitum) Ok, thank you for that, Dahlia?
(Dahlia) I'd like more info on how much authority the council would have, that would make it anything other than just another forum to post comments
(Obitum) Well, it does of course remain Snikt's game ultimately, but the Lord Council was given some pretty wide leeway in dealing with some things like players creating problems, and had a very strong voice with the staff as it was seen as a sort of consensus among the group
(Obitum) Thank you for that, CLOADZhopper?
(Anessa) queue is CLOADZhopper, Laazarus, Alcarcalimo, Skorn, Plasmatic
(CLOADZhopper) Going along with Imrik's and Dahlia's concerns, I wonder what the real utility of a council would be. Do we not already have the ability, via notes and the idea command, to try to effect changes we believe need to be made?
(Obitum) Yes that's true, though doing it in a singular, organized voice can also carry more effect. But again, it's a lot of work to maintain, so it's up to you (all of you) if that's worthwhile
(Obitum) Thank you for that, Laazarus, are you ready for us?
(Anessa) queue is Laazarus, Alcarcalimo, Skorn, Plasmatic
(Laazarus) sorry i was lagged, sounds like some comments similar to mine were made but here goes..
(Laazarus) my question relates to your last point obitum - i feel with the ideas list, bug list, and email lists, there is a lot of opportunity for players to be heard (and imms do seem to really listen). how would a player council be different? would imms give their requests more priority or consideration or something? i'm leaning against the idea as i see it now, unless there's something the council could accomplish i
(Laazarus) individual comments can not, without privileging a few ppl's requests.
(Anessa) queue is Alcarcalimo, Skorn, Plasmatic, Glissade, Scrape
(Obitum) Yes, that's a very valid question and point, and I suppose the greatest advantage is simply that singular voice - the idea that a representative council has called for certain things in a unified voice. That doesn't guarantee anything, but it can be more compelling
(Laazarus) that's what worries me to an extent
(Obitum) It also gives us (the Imms) a place to go if we're trying to figure out the best way to handle a tricky situation, be it with a certain feature or what have you
(Obitum) Thank you for that, Alcarcalimo?
(Alcarcalimo) Lord shouldn't be soloable, you have 2 tiers to solo if you want, deal with having to group. As far as the current tools, judging by the monthly spamming of my inbox by people with ideas that make me cry, I say just have weekly conferences on ideas not just player submitted ones, we join, we talk about them, we laugh at people.
(Obitum) Ok, thank you for that, Skorn?
(Skorn) I agree with Imrik 100%.0 A council of players and Imms is not really supportable in this environment since our playerbase is so diverse in timezones and work/school schedules. IMO it's just not worth the effort and could be better managed through interactive functions on the website and/or mailers and probably get a lot more community support since it would be as you had time, not only at a specific time.
(Obitum) Thanks, Skorn, Plasmatic?
(Plasmatic) if there is a council for different tiers, would you maintain your position on the hero council if you become a lord, or if you are a lord remorting, will you maintain lord council status?
(Obitum) Oh, this would be a council for all players of all tiers, so that anyone from low mort to legend could be elected (depending on the rule you all would set up)
(Anessa) queue is Glissade, Scrape, Shem, Madgor
(Obitum) Thank you for that, Glissade?
(Glissade) Agree with Laazaru's comments about privileging a few people's requests. If we had a council, I wonder if we could have a fair election process - if elected by imms it could be viewed as imm favoritism. If elected by players it could be stacked by cliques. Maybe a council whose sole purpose is to be a sounding board for imm ideas and how well they'd fly...and spot impacts of change from a player perspective,
(Glissade) but no real authority in terms of advocating particular ideas, or else a process where every idea for the council is submitted via the ideacouncil command and it's a public forum when they meet - so that everyone feels they have a say even if they're not on the council - and if they don't like how it's being run they vote for someone else next time.
(Anessa) queue is Scrape, Shem, Madgor, Snyggve
(Obitum) Very valid points, and thank you for the suggestion. Scrape?
(Scrape) going back to the idea board.. why not take an idea.. have an immortal ask about the idea on open channels.. like chat.. so everyone can discuss it. yay or nay! totally agree with what skorn said too.. blah! imagine that. agreeing with mr death!
(Obitum) Thanks, Scrape. Shem?
(Shem) How would you propose a lord council getting elected? And how would you prevent it from becoming a popularity contest in which people are capable of using their "compelling voice" to further their ideas vs what's best for AVATAR and players in general, even if it meant having to nerf their favorite alts (for example)
(Obitum) Ahh yes, the problem of popularity contests, etc... Well, that was a difficult and interesting problem, and it's one I'm now throwing at all of you
(Obitum) Thanks though, Madgor?
(Madgor) I just wanted to note that the fact that people don't feel like this council is needed, myself included, speaks a lot to the extent that we as players feel like our needs are already being taken care of. I don't feel like it's necessary b/c there aren't any changes that I really want to see. Thank you for that.
(Bolg) whoi mad
(Obitum) Thanks Madgor, glad we're doing things well enough to keep you interested
(Anessa) queue is Snyggve, CLOADZhopper, Alcarcalimo
(Snyggve) Clarification - the former Lord Council was elected via anonymous voting through the player base.
(Scrape) popularity contest
(Obitum) Thank you Snyggve, CLOADZhopper?
(CLOADZhopper) Lest the conversation go too far afield, I wonder what the specific duties of such an elected council will be? What will be their primary function, if people still use the idea command and such--will the imms come to this council for feedback on specific things, or will it be more of a bottom-up model?
(Obitum) Well, the exact scope of such a council's responsibilities would be determined by those writing its charter, which would be all of you
(Obitum) Thanks though, Alcarcalimo?
(Alcarcalimo) From what it sounds like, the website poll would be the easiest way to get an opinion on an idea. How else would we include everybody if it's only a few people that have a decision.
(Obitum) That's certainly one way to handle that part of it, in terms of voicing player concerns and giving a representative group the ability to decide questions about how features or ideas should be implemented? That's a bit trickier to do with polls
(Obitum) Thank you though, next in queue please?
(Anessa) queue is Shem, Laazarus, Skorn, Glissade, Snyggve
(Shem) RE Magdor, If you look at $who, the players who are in this conference, it's very obvious that a council isn't necessary to get our voices out, nor are most of us lacking in necessary skills in that department. However, there are many players out there, new and oldtimers, that might not have any ideas on how to get their voice heard and don't have the confidence to speak out on channels. Might a council not
(Shem) RE Magdor, If you look at $who, the players who are in this conference, it's very obvious that a council isn't necessary to get our voices out, nor are most of us lacking in necessary skills in that department. However, there are many players out there, new and oldtimers,
(Shem) sorry bout that
(Shem) but might the council not help the newer or quieter players?
(Obitum) Yes, and some people find it very difficult to express themselves by speaking up on their own
(Shem) I've tried 3 times to get on the website and the registration has never finished
(Shem) i doubt i'm the only one with that problem
(Obitum) Ok, please see me after the conference
(Obitum) Thank you for that Shem, Laazarus?
(Laazarus) i don't think the council idea is a good one for reasons mentioned. there are now plenty of good ways to express an opinion/offer an idea. however, for imms to have somewhere to bounce ideas, how about the mailing list? any player who wants can be on that. we could publicize it more if needed.
(Laazarus) for example the discussion on fdk and imp a while back
(Obitum) There are indeed mailers for that purpose as well, which is one of the reasons it's been mentioned why this might not make sense at this time
(Obitum) We'll do what's left in the queue and then finish up
(Obitum) Queue please?
(Anessa) queue is Skorn, Glissade, Snyggve, Scrape, Fleshfly
(Obitum) Ok, Skorn
(Skorn) As far as ideas go, Pulse has a handle on them for the most part with the mailers. Anyone can access it and he does get them completed and back to the mailers fairly regularly. Issues with players can easily be handled through an Immortal online as they should be. The only place I could see a Council style thing being effective is in disseminating information back to the playerbase, and that could easily be a
(Obitum) Thank you, Glissade?
(Obitum) Oh sorry,
(Skorn) Meh. Just said it could be accomplished through online or the mailers. ;)
(Obitum) Jumping the gun there, please finish up
(Skorn) Silly line too long.
(Obitum) ok, thanks Skorn, Glissade?
(Glissade) A forum to talk live gives a different kind of feedback and discussion of ideas than static post-reply forums or polls. If we don't have a Council, I'd still like to see Imm-hosted regularly scheduled conferences that invite the mud to participate in discussing important upcoming changes. Especially significant changes to races/classes/powers.
(Obitum) That's a good idea also Glissade
(Obitum) Thank you, Snyggve?
(Snyggve) Skip please, Shem covered me. Also, good point Glissade.
(Laazarus) i dunno, then it's only who's on at the time
(Obitum) Next in queue?
(Anessa) queue is Scrape, Fleshfly
(Scrape) why not vote on the council right here and now? ask yes or no? clear cut. everyone who cares about it should obviously be here. i hope your reading these and not just saying ok next! :P you may want to write these down!
(Obitum) Hehe, definitely reading, and also planning on doing a vote as soon as we're through the current queue
(Obitum) Thanks though, next?
(Anessa) queue Fleshfly
(Fleshfly) My suggestion: form a player council and just have them moderate the outland.org forum and help solicite ideas. Then present the results of the forum discussion formally to Imm/staff.
(Obitum) Ok, thank you for that
(Fleshfly) Without a formal presentation any ideas run the risk of being ignored
(Obitum) Ok, thanks
(Obitum) With that, I want to move into a quick vote to see how to proceed
(Obitum) First, let's get a quick up and down on whether to proceed with forming a council (which would happen in a series of meetings to be held over the next couple weeks)
(Obitum) Alright, everyone, please say 'yes' if you are in favor of forming an official Player Council
(Scrape) the no's have it by a landslide
(Skorn) Only the first meeting. There are more scheduled right?
(Obitum) Looks like we're just shy of a majority there
(Obitum) There are more scheduled if we're to form a player council, which it looks like we are not at this time
(Scrape) that's hardly just shy
(Zahri) How about an outland.org poll, after the log is posted:?
(Skorn) Majority would be 2/3 against.
(Verminaard) you should vote the nos...there might be undecideds or imms not voting?
(Anessa) I like Zahri's idea.. not everyone could attend this
(Zahri) Some people just can't attend today's (vacation, etc)
(Koichi) yeah a poll would be better
(Obitum) Alright, what we'll do now is post a poll on the website with a few different options
(Obitum) Some people have voiced some good ideas, and I want to add those as alternative options
(Glissade) but with a summary of pros cons from today's conference that they gotta read first?
(Laazarus) as long as ppl can see the concerns before voting in the poll
(Scrape) the website thing is bad.. people dont go out of they're way to hit up the website
(Obitum) Yes, a log of today's conference will be posted on the website
(Scrape) have your votes in real time
(Alcarcalimo) The imms can advertise it. Like they do with quests.
(MedEad) it's true, I frequent the website far less than I play the game
(Obitum) And we'll make sure we do advertise it
(Imrik) Scrape: Maybe they should...I think the webpage is the most under utlized resource...
(Skorn) If they don't want to participate in the Council forming/not forming. That is their decision.
(Banquo) I'm pretty vehemently opposed to a council, since I generally felt like lord council was actually bad for the game
(Jaromil) a note can be posted, those that feel strongly about it will go to the website
(Obitum) Anyone who's interested will see it in notes, MOTDs, etc
(Fleshfly) Haven't kept track of it, but I hope the website can be made more easily accessible
(Obitum) Yes, I promise notes, MOTDs, and anything else I can do to make sure everyone knows to go vote on this on the website
(Scrape) maybe but it doesnt change the fact that they dont.. and you only getting a percentage of the would be voters votes on the website
(Laazarus) real time is worse
(Skorn) Should be more than 35 people to vote in it though. ;)
(Fleshfly) Anything that encourages people to go to the website will make people contribute to the forums as well, imo
(Laazarus) only a few ppl are on at any given moment
(Riviat) Whatever method we use there will always be someone who won't use it
(Shem) if it doesn't matter enough to you to vote, then it doesn't matter what your opinion is imo
(Briney) It's a higher percentage than in this conference, Scrape
(Laazarus) would be nice to see more activity on the forums
(Briney) We'll never get 100%
(Scrape) yeah riv.. but the best chance is here in the game i'de say
(Obitum) Since there is not overwhelming support among the group here for a go-ahead today, I want to open up some other options via the website.
(Laazarus) in the email list for example you have a long time to sit down and read it, think, respond, etc
(Koichi) how about voting by notes on board 2?
(Glissade) not sure...are the imms voting in this?
(Scrape) make a vote board
(Glissade) if not, the total is less than 35
(Obitum) We'll use the website, since that's easier to use
(Obitum) And everyone has a web browser
(Snyggve) The imms are playing the game as well, so I think they would like to vote too.
(Scrape) lol.. so just doing what you want in the end anyway
(Obitum) The total is less than 35, I took that into account
(Fleshfly) Here's a suggestion: dismantle the board system, force people to use the website
(Banquo) that would suck
(Alcarcalimo) lord That wouldn't work.
(Obitum) Alright everyone, thank you VERY much for attending this meeting
(Laazarus) thank you obitum
(Glissade) thanks obitum
(Alcarcalimo) Can I open up the cans now?
(Shem) we should have more of these
(Obitum) With your input, we'll go ahead with the options on the website poll and work from there
(Shem) stopping log
(Obitum) Thanks and have a great day!